Downgrade blade back to all-wood?

[Manto76]

Regardless of how we want to spin it, a Camry is miles behind a Lambo when it comes to performance. Yes, you don't really need a Lambo for your objectives but it's more powerful. That's the way I see it.

It's not really debatable when it comes to performance just how superior carbon blades is.

Okay, we can agree to disagree. Your argument is 'more power = greater performance', and I accept that that's the way you see it.

For sure that argument is debatable though!

 

[Wrighty67]

Regardless of how we want to spin it, a Camry is miles behind a Lambo when it comes to performance. Yes, you don't really need a Lambo for your objectives but it's more powerful. That's the way I see it.

It's not really debatable when it comes to performance just how superior carbon blades is. I think there is a table about the equipment pros used ten years ago and today. Most top ten have changed their blades from all wood to carbon. Ma Long used to play with Acoustic and his career high is with carbon blade. Gauzy has also moved on to carbon blade. Even TTD Tom is now using carbon blade.

But a Camry is clearly miles better than a Lamborghini at carrying 4 people - so the definition of better depends on the functionality required. Performance doesn‘t just mean speed. Carbon blades are generally faster - yes, but do they perform better in all situations - no. Pro‘s using a blade is a long way from meaning it is superior for all players.

 

[latej]

I wish we'd stop talking about the change to all wood blades as a "downgrade."

When someone changes from an 'inner' carbon to an 'outer' carbon, or vice versa, we just talk about the "change" they've made—not the "downgrade."

If we really believe what we all say, i.e. that finding the equipment that works best for you is the goal, then discovering that an all wood blade is best for you shouldn't be spoken of as a "downgrade." At worst, it's just a change and, at best, it's a successful change.

Since this is now about words and definitions, let's play devil's advocate for a moment ;-)

If you are flexible about the meanings of "performance", why not also about the meanings of "downgrade"? We don't have to attach that negative connotation to the word "downgrade", and then "downgrade" is fine again, even desirable ;-)

 

[IB66]

Carbon blades were first brought into the game during the speed glue / old 38mm ball era, rubbers hadn’t really changed for a while during that period, Mark V / Sriver were the, in general go to rubbers (Perhaps in Europe and Japan) So if you wanted more speed (other than speed glue) carbon was the way to go, but most people wanted both!! also at that time the newly evolving carbon and composite fleece materials were in their infancy. All wood blades were basically all that was available, and performed very well with the smaller ball.
Things were pretty well balanced as it were.

Since then the various ball changes, banning of speed glue etc aimed at slowing the game down resulted in manufacturers concentrating on rubber development. The combination of a Tamca type carbon blade with fast modern tensor rubber with high catapult is a monster!!

The original Tamca carbon is still very fast, this can be seen by taking a look at Butterflies blade chart, the Tamca carbon blades are still amongst the fastest available. The more modern ‘carbon’ fleeces now available ALC, ZLC etc have a different role and characteristics.
I’m pretty sure that if manufacturers wanted to go faster with their blades, they could, there are now more material / fibre options available. But they haven’t

The original Tamca Carbon fibre is Tech that is about 45+ yrs old!!!

If max speed was that important, then you would be seeing pros using the Tamca type carbon blades, I think T Boll had a period with the Primorac carbon blade, I’m not sure if he is still using it? But now the inner and outer ALC / ZLC variations are way more popular, balancing out speed, with control etc with the use of modern rubbers.

Hybrid rubbers are also more popular / available these days. When you listened to the blurb from players promoting D09C they were talking about, spin, safety, control, not speed, well they couldn’t because it isn’t as fast!! But again it’s about balance.

If you have played with fast blades, be it inner / outer ALC, ZLC etc for a good length of time then moving to an all wood blade is going to be ‘different’. As would moving from wood to ALC

I think the main thing to take from this thread and others about equipment, is that it’s about personal preference!!!
Finding the right BALANCE for YOU regardless of what others say or report.

 

[banbekas]

But a Camry is clearly miles better than a Lamborghini at carrying 4 people - so the definition of better depends on the functionality required. Performance doesn‘t just mean speed. Carbon blades are generally faster - yes, but do they perform better in all situations - no. Pro‘s using a blade is a long way from meaning it is superior for all players.

Considering that pros need every advantage they could get however small it is, it's a good indication that carbon blades are superior than all wood blades.

Okay, we can agree to disagree. Your argument is 'more power = greater performance', and I accept that that's the way you see it.

For sure that argument is debatable though!

Sure.

 

[Atas Newton]

Regardless of how we want to spin it, a Camry is miles behind a Lambo when it comes to performance. Yes, you don't really need a Lambo for your objectives but it's more powerful. That's the way I see it.

It's not really debatable when it comes to performance just how superior carbon blades is. I think there is a table about the equipment pros used ten years ago and today. Most top ten have changed their blades from all wood to carbon. Ma Long used to play with Acoustic and his career high is with carbon blade. Gauzy has also moved on to carbon blade. Even TTD Tom is now using carbon blade.

But are you Ma Long or Gauzy? I don't see how their choice of equipment is relevant for us mere mortals. They're on a different level of fitness, their technique is astronomically better, they practically play a different game altogether. Finally, I'm not even playing to win necessarily, I play to have fun.

 

[banbekas]

But are you Ma Long or Gauzy? I don't see how their choice of equipment is relevant for us mere mortals. They're on a different level of fitness, their technique is astronomically better, they practically play a different game altogether. Finally, I'm not even playing to win necessarily, I play to have fun.

The fact that these pros are moving from all wood to carbon is a good indication that carbon blades are better for performance. Boosted H3 performs better than unboosted one despite you, for your purpose, don't need it. Saying that I'm not Ma Long or Guzy doesn't make any sense since the very beginning I never claimed to be so.

 

[cucuonga1]

Alright, I have changed my blade from Timo Boll ALC with Ten 05 on both sides to Petr Korbel with Rozena 2.1mm on both sides. Here is my story:

- I think I am about 1650 USATT (I am not in the US, I just compare them to myself by watching youtube)

- A month ago, I went to my club, play with another player. My loop and smash were amazing like usual, people sitting there clapped whenever I counter topspin several in a row. But I lost the match.

- I went home, did a reflection on the match, I found I made too many mistakes with pushing too far or too high, giving the opponent many "free" points. Even though my forehand loop and drive were still amazing like usual, but I lost more points than what my forehand attack gave me.

- I got online, read many threads on equipment, found this thread and others on Reddit. Then I learn that I might have a too fast combo. (Funny fact: when I talk about this with local players, they think ALC is slow and control, I shouldn't go for slower blade, haha). I also consult ChatGPT. It told me to go even slower (like Primorac), but I am too scared, so I go for Korbel + Rozena, which is a much cheaper combo (still happy about the cost).

- To this day, I have won many players that I struggled to win before. I make less error. You can attribute this to my extensive training too (I trained with my robot 1 hour a day, play at the club 2 hours a day - except for the weekend). This is so much progress in a month, probably from both my excessive training + more feeling on the blade.

- I still have my ALC in the box, hopefully one day I will come back to it when I reach to the level (ChatGPT told me that when I reach above 2000 USATT, I can try faster blade). But for now, I am happy with my Korbel.

------
Anyhow, here is a video Olav (pro) talks about equipments. He also mentioned why amateur should use slower all-wood blades

I watched it today, then remember this thread and come back to comment on my experience. (Also I want this guy's channel got more popular so he is motivated to make more videos. I like pros' channel like his and Lind)

 

[Lazer]

Alright, I have changed my blade from Timo Boll ALC with Ten 05 on both sides to Petr Korbel with Rozena 2.1mm on both sides. Here is my story:

- I think I am about 1650 USATT (I am not in the US, I just compare them to myself by watching youtube)

- A month ago, I went to my club, play with another player. My loop and smash were amazing like usual, people sitting there clapped whenever I counter topspin several in a row. But I lost the match.

- I went home, did a reflection on the match, I found I made too many mistakes with pushing too far or too high, giving the opponent many "free" points. Even though my forehand loop and drive were still amazing like usual, but I lost more points than what my forehand attack gave me.

- I got online, read many threads on equipment, found this thread and others on Reddit. Then I learn that I might have a too fast combo. (Funny fact: when I talk about this with local players, they think ALC is slow and control, I shouldn't go for slower blade, haha). I also consult ChatGPT. It told me to go even slower (like Primorac), but I am too scared, so I go for Korbel + Rozena, which is a much cheaper combo (still happy about the cost).

- To this day, I have won many players that I struggled to win before. I make less error. You can attribute this to my extensive training too (I trained with my robot 1 hour a day, play at the club 2 hours a day - except for the weekend). This is so much progress in a month, probably from both my excessive training + more feeling on the blade.

- I still have my ALC in the box, hopefully one day I will come back to it when I reach to the level (ChatGPT told me that when I reach above 2000 USATT, I can try faster blade). But for now, I am happy with my Korbel.

------
Anyhow, here is a video Olav (pro) talks about equipments. He also mentioned why amateur should use slower all-wood blades

I watched it today, then remember this thread and come back to comment on my experience. (Also I want this guy's channel got more popular so he is motivated to make more videos. I like pros' channel like his and Lind)

Most of the time, you don’t win games. The opponent loses them.
Usually the player giving away least easy point win…

Like my trainer points out “Number one is to always put the ball back on the table”

Cheers
L-zr

 

[PoorPingPong&PianoPlayer]

Most of the time, you don’t win games. The opponent loses them.
Usually the player giving away least easy point win…

Like my trainer points out “Number one is to always put the ball back on the table”

Cheers
L-zr

And the question is, which blade is better to achieve it? Faster carbon with revspin control 9.0 or slower wood with control 8.0?🤔

 

[Lazer]

Whichever You like better, BTW take revspin ratings with a huge grain of sand...
Control and speed are virtually the inverse of each other...

I would prefer the slower blade, but this does not necessarily need to be an all wood.
Donic Appelgren World Champ 89 is an excellent slow outer carbon blade, the slowest
outer blade I know of. If You want want to stay carbon check it out.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[cucuonga1]

And the question is, which blade is better to achieve it? Faster carbon with revspin control 9.0 or slower wood with control 8.0?🤔

There is no way to know! Try it out for yourself, like I did. And then you find the answer, but it's also for yourself, not everyone else.

For me, it's much easier to put the ball on the table with Korbel + Rozena 2.1 than Timo ALC + Ten05. It feels better right the first session I played with Korbel. And I have to say this is because of my level, my technique, and my style. My loop & drive are slower, but also spinner (according to my opponents). The balls land on the table more frequent than before.

Btw, ChatGPT told me that I should use Korbel until I reach about 2k~2.1k USATT. Haha. Not sure where it learned that from. But I am having both, I will come back to this thread and let you know once I reach that level.

 

[PoorPingPong&PianoPlayer]

Exactly.

Last week I tried Stiga Offensive Classic WRB wood and didn't like it. Had some issues with control, sometimes I even didn't understand what's wrong. Even some guy noticed at revspin it takes time to get used to it. And, WRB wasn't a reason, I used to play senso.

On the other hand, for example when I tried Donic Waldner Legend Carbon, it was a love on the first sight (or touch? Faster, unbelievable control, literally everything hit the table easily. Donic Appelgren World Champ 89 looks like it could belong into the same category.

So, I just wanted to highlight that slower wood doesn't mean a better performance automatically. I've noticed that many wood lovers are somehow scared of any faster blade in general. Even when a better control is declared. And I don't know why.

 

[Manto76]

I've noticed that many wood lovers are somehow scared of any faster blade in general. Even when a better control is declared. And I don't know why.

Take a look at Carl's post at #25 in this thread; he's explained it very nicely.

Basically, Carl's point (which I think is exactly correct) is that it's not only about speed, it's also about feel. All wood blades vibrate more naturally, thus providing good feedback to your nervous system and providing your brain with good information about how to adjust/improve the mechanics of your shot.

The presence of carbon in the blade mutes/lessens that feedback, and thus makes it harder for you to (a) know what you did right/wrong, and (b) make the appropriate adjustments.

In summary, most folks will probably learn/improve slower with a carbon blade than they will with an all wood blade.

Two other things worth noting:

1. Some all wood blades are faster than many carbon blades. For example, the Tibhar SPW (which is a 5-ply all wood) is faster than many (perhaps even most) inner carbon blades. Stiga's (now discontinued) Emerald VPS V likewise. The old Butterfly Mazunov was faster than Superman on a Red Bull binge.
2. The speed of a blade operates on two levels: There's a difference between the speed of a blade at low-to-moderate impact, and at very high impact. Check out the excellent explanation of 'primary' vs 'central' elasticity at TT Gear Lab here: https://ttgearlab.com/2017/02/06/performance-indices-the-way-to-evaluatie-blade-by-measurement/

 

[PoorPingPong&PianoPlayer]

Carl's post at #25 is very complex. It's about technique, skill, experiment and willingness to go there and back again, too. But I have talked to some people that it looks like they have a good technique, so why wouldn't try something faster with more power (looking at their average allround blade) and the answer was always almost the same, 'I think it would be too fast for me'. They even don't want to try and experiment. It looks like some kind of a mental block. They're obviously happy with their level and in fact they don't want to go higher. To be honest, they still beat me because their consistency is much better than mine, but I'm getting closer and closer ;-)

 

[Atas Newton]

They even don't want to try and experiment

you really think people with good technique never experimented with different setups? They've all been there, done that.

 

[PoorPingPong&PianoPlayer]

you really think people with good technique never experimented with different setups? They've all been there, done that.

They never answered 'I already tried, but it was too fast'.

 

[NextLevel]

Carl's post at #25 is very complex. It's about technique, skill, experiment and willingness to go there and back again, too. But I have talked to some people that it looks like they have a good technique, so why wouldn't try something faster with more power (looking at their average allround blade) and the answer was always almost the same, 'I think it would be too fast for me'. They even don't want to try and experiment. It looks like some kind of a mental block. They're obviously happy with their level and in fact they don't want to go higher. To be honest, they still beat me because their consistency is much better than mine, but I'm getting closer and closer ;-)

It's best not described as a mental block though it is clearly a mental and personal thing. In something like table tennis, you cannot ignore the importance of feeling in control. You also can't ignore the problems with changing behaviors that you might built up over decades of practice. Some adjust better, some adjust worse, some will never adjust because they are conservative and some will adjust frequently because they don't care. This is true in many things in life not juat table tennis - people display different attitudes to risk and change across many activities.

My change from all wood to carbon as a permanent thing was a process. And to be honest, speed is more about the overall setup and how it plays across a wide range of shots. Blocking with all wood is different, Looping broadly the same, even the feeling is similar though it can be less vibrations. And even playing with hybrid rubbers shows some differences as the inner composite can help with ball separation on power shots that you might not get with an all wood blade. For me. My switch to carbon was tied up with using relatively spinny rubbers and trying to see whether I could compete more consistently with faster players. Even with carbon, there are differences in design. Innerforce or CCF blades try to put more wood in the outer plies to give softer shots on touch shots and faster shots when the core plies are engaged and are arguably more like wood on touch shots, but how much this is key with sticky or hybrid rubbers is an open question.

Looking at some of the top players: Boll, outer force, FZD outer force, ML innerforce, Dima,innerforce, Truls innerforce/CCF, Harimoto, Innerforce, Lin Yun Ju SZLC outer force, Freitas Outer force etc.

I cannot see any difference in how these guys play based on the composition of their blades.

While some of it is in wood choice for plies and other blade nuances and rubbers etc., I don't waste too much time with it anymore. I look for a fast blade with hybrid rubbers. The rubbers will hopefully help with short game and the fast blade will provide power on shots when needed. It doesn't always work that way but it will get better with time. Because sometimes you have to surprise yourself with your equipment to know what it is truly capable of and without training and experimentation, that is impossible. It is just easier to do what you already know works.

 

[PoorPingPong&PianoPlayer]

... I look for a fast blade with hybrid rubbers. The rubbers will hopefully help with short game and the fast blade will provide power on shots when needed. It doesn't always work that way but it will get better with time. ...

I 100% agree. I play short pips on BH as I used to play LP for many years and in the end I noticed that SP fit me better. But in general, I couldn't agree more with you.