Can rubbers achieve even more catapult than currently?

[JJ Ng]

amateurs talk about speed
semi pros talk about control and spin
pros talk about spin and speed

I wonder why do we even measure a speed on rubbers, if we are not first measuring the skills of the user of these rubbers?
speed is nothing, if one can't control or spin the ball.

Big Dipper and D09C can't even be in the same sentence.
if your level is only that much, it might seem the same
the moment skills and level increase, D09C is much more higher in performance on the control, spin and speed ratio than Big Dipper

Rubbers needs to be groups in control, spin and speed and not speed alone.

To think the decade old G1, MXP, Tenergy (05) is the same speed (and control/spin) as the more recent is obviously wrong as the newer gen are indeed much higher in all 3

Maybe I am old school. I am still making my way through that first generation of rubbers. Today I put EL-P on my backhand for the first time (I have tried MX-P, MX-S, EL-S, FX-D and FX-P before) and I like it a lot. MX-S is wayyyyy too hard for my backhand. I had no control with MX-P. I think my backhand likes Rozena, C-1 and EL-P the best so far (over say Rakza 7 soft, BlueFire M2, Accuda S2, Barracuda, etc). I just don't see the need to pay $60+ for the next generation of ESN rubbers.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Maybe I am old school. I am still making my way through that first generation of rubbers. Today I put EL-P on my backhand for the first time (I have tried MX-P, MX-S, EL-S, FX-D and FX-P before) and I like it a lot. MX-S is wayyyyy too hard for my backhand. I had no control with MX-P. I think my backhand likes Rozena, C-1 and EL-P the best so far (over say Rakza 7 soft, BlueFire M2, Accuda S2, Barracuda, etc). I just don't see the need to pay $60+ for the next generation of ESN rubbers.

precisely,
It isn't all about speed

 

[TensorBackhand]

Maybe I am old school. I am still making my way through that first generation of rubbers. Today I put EL-P on my backhand for the first time (I have tried MX-P, MX-S, EL-S, FX-D and FX-P before) and I like it a lot. MX-S is wayyyyy too hard for my backhand. I had no control with MX-P. I think my backhand likes Rozena, C-1 and EL-P the best so far (over say Rakza 7 soft, BlueFire M2, Accuda S2, Barracuda, etc). I just don't see the need to pay $60+ for the next generation of ESN rubbers.

My question was really about the physical/scientific state of rubbers. I was just curious if rubbers can physically be made faster or not, or if there is an actual scientific limitation to the rubber catapult.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

My question was really about the physical/scientific state of rubbers. I was just curious if rubbers can physically be made faster or not, or if there is an actual scientific limitation to the rubber catapult.

10 years, you/one could ask the same question.

 

[longle]

Maybe I am old school. I am still making my way through that first generation of rubbers. Today I put EL-P on my backhand for the first time (I have tried MX-P, MX-S, EL-S, FX-D and FX-P before) and I like it a lot. MX-S is wayyyyy too hard for my backhand. I had no control with MX-P. I think my backhand likes Rozena, C-1 and EL-P the best so far (over say Rakza 7 soft, BlueFire M2, Accuda S2, Barracuda, etc). I just don't see the need to pay $60+ for the next generation of ESN rubbers.

we are comfortable driving a Honda Ford but sometimes it feels good to try a Lamborghini once

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

we are comfortable driving a Honda Ford but sometimes it feels good to try a Lamborghini once

you would hire it by the hour
won't buy it, or maybe you already have one? 😆

 

[Lazer]

@TensorBackhand
Absolutely, it can always improve, but as catapult and speed goes there is no selling point right now so it will not happen soon.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[longle]

you would hire it by the hour
won't buy it, or maybe you already have one? 😆

for expensive rubbers (over 60$) I always bought newly used ones (luckily they sell them a lot in VN) they may not be in best condition out of the box but enough to have a taste how they feel like.

The most expensive rubbers I've tried are D09c and D05. I couldn't control them, so I sold them

 

[longle]

@TensorBackhand
Absolutely, it can always improve, but as catapult and speed goes there is no selling point right now so it will not happen soon.

Cheers
L-zr

but all of the brands are marketing their newest rubbers as: "super fast rubber without sacrificing control"

 

[Gozo Aruna]

for expensive rubbers (over 60$) I always bought newly used ones (luckily they sell it a lot in VN) it may not be in best condition out of the box but enough to have a taste how it feels like.

The most expensive rubbers I've tried are D09c and D05. I couldn't control them, so I sold them

or you could go the complete opposite way: Non-tensor super soft like hot butter sponge for the ultimate control.

 

[Manto76]

To think the decade old G1, MXP, Tenergy (05) is the same speed (and control/spin) as the more recent is obviously wrong as the newer gen are indeed much higher in all 3

Do you really think so, Tony? Are you talking about rubbers of the same hardness?

I agree with you that rubbers such as the Dignics series, MX-D, all the new "Hard" and "Extra Hard" variants (i.e 50-degrees and upwards), and top-end hybrids (Dragon Grip, K3, C53, etc.) have higher performance potential than the older generation, but these all have harder sponges.

But, when I compare rubbers with sponges at 47/48 degrees for example, Rasanter R/C48, DNA Platinum M, Dynaryz ACC, Nexxus EL48, Mantra Pro M, Jekyll & Hyde V47.5, etc., they really don't seem to offer more than G1, T05, MX-P, Bluefire M1.

Sure they all have a different feel, which folks will like or dislike according to personal preference, but I really don't see a 'generational' difference in performance characteristics.

And I'm not even factoring in the prices

 

[Lazer]

or you could go the complete opposite way: Non-tensor super soft like hot butter sponge for the ultimate control.

Such soft rubbers are uncontrollable...

Cheers
L-zr

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Do you really think so, Tony? Are you talking about rubbers of the same hardness?

I agree with you that rubbers such as the Dignics series, MX-D, all the new "Hard" and "Extra Hard" variants (i.e 50-degrees and upwards), and top-end hybrids (Dragon Grip, K3, C53, etc.) have higher performance potential than the older generation, but these all have harder sponges.

But, when I compare rubbers with sponges at 47/48 degrees for example, Rasanter R/C48, DNA Platinum M, Dynaryz ACC, Nexxus EL48, Mantra Pro M, Jekyll & Hyde V47.5, etc., they really don't seem to offer more than G1, T05, MX-P, Bluefire M1.

Sure they all have a different feel, which folks will like or dislike according to personal preference, but I really don't see a 'generational' difference in performance characteristics.

And I'm not even factoring in the prices

If it takes harder sponge or this or that, it doesn't matter, king of generation between the 2 periods is what I was referring to.

Tenergy 05/64 from a decade ago versus today options from Butterfly for example. maybe that is a more direct answer.
So same theory, I do believe a decade later, some other thing will come out.

I keep seeing new rubbers come out that don't see very different. G1, MXP, Tenergy are all over a decade old, and yet the new rubbers that come out don't really seem to move the needle much

Tenergy 05/64 was like the "limit back then", wasn't it.
Obviously some still think the needle is still the same or so.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

When ITTF legalises non-wood blades, you can use a 15mm pure carbon pickleball bat.

no joke
wood reduction in the blade will come, sooner or later.
to match that of UN 2050 vision

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

for expensive rubbers (over 60$) I always bought newly used ones (luckily they sell them a lot in VN) they may not be in best condition out of the box but enough to have a taste how they feel like.

The most expensive rubbers I've tried are D09c and D05. I couldn't control them, so I sold them

I hope you sold it for more than you bought it in for. haha

 

[riemsesy]

Big Dipper and D09C can't even be in the same sentence.

Huh?

 

[Manto76]

If it takes harder sponge or this or that, it doesn't matter, king of generation between the 2 periods is what I was referring to.

Tenergy 05/64 from a decade ago versus today options from Butterfly for example. maybe that is a more direct answer.

Okay, I understand what you're saying now. You're saying that each brand's "flagship" rubber today has higher performance potential than their flagship rubber did 10 years ago.

In that case, I agree. Certainly in the case of Euro./Japanese rubbers that's true, though I'm not sure if the same could be said of H3?

Back to the OP's point, though, I agree with the OP that the current rubbers in the same 47/48 degree range are not really any better than the G1 / MX-P / T05 / Bluefire generation.

Some play differently, and folks will prefer the feel of one versus another, but there's nothing you can do with, for example, Rasanter R48 or Dynaryz ACC that you can't do with one of the older generation rubbers (which, except for T05, are all cheaper).

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Okay, I understand what you're saying now. You're saying that each brand's "flagship" rubber today has higher performance potential than their flagship rubber did 10 years ago.

In that case, I agree. Certainly in the case of Euro./Japanese rubbers that's true, though I'm not sure if the same could be said of H3?

Back to the OP's point, though, I agree with the OP that the current rubbers in the same 47/48 degree range are not really any better than the G1 / MX-P / T05 / Bluefire generation.

Some play differently, and folks will prefer the feel of one versus another, but there's nothing you can do with, for example, Rasanter R48 or Dynaryz ACC that you can't do with one of the older generation rubbers (which, except for T05, are all cheaper).

yeah
OP didn't talk about sponge hardness, so didn't I.
H3 actually became better suited for 40+ ball.
So they had a bit of a shift not related to the rubber's department (maybe DHS pushed for the ball change? haha, opps)

If one thinks T05 of 10 years ago, and say just T05 Hard is the same needle number, then obviously we using different meter readings

I personally feel allround the improvement is there for the past 10 years.
and in the next 10 years, we should see more.
It could be related to more rule changes, we don't know, but 10 years ago, T05 stayed around as king for long enough and it sure last its position now to D05 and somewhat, T05/D09C

 

[TensorBackhand]

Okay, I understand what you're saying now. You're saying that each brand's "flagship" rubber today has higher performance potential than their flagship rubber did 10 years ago.

In that case, I agree. Certainly in the case of Euro./Japanese rubbers that's true, though I'm not sure if the same could be said of H3?

Back to the OP's point, though, I agree with the OP that the current rubbers in the same 47/48 degree range are not really any better than the G1 / MX-P / T05 / Bluefire generation.

Some play differently, and folks will prefer the feel of one versus another, but there's nothing you can do with, for example, Rasanter R48 or Dynaryz ACC that you can't do with one of the older generation rubbers (which, except for T05, are all cheaper).

Yes, this is basically my point. 10 years ago, i dont think anybody made 50d and 53d tensors.

So the old G1 from 2010 is largely the same as new rubbers like ACC.

Even a lot of pros are still using rubbers from this 2010 generation. Mima uses G1, Hayata and CXT use Tenergy, Jorkic uses MXP.

So I just wonder if rubbers within their own caregory (tensors, hard tensors, hybrids) can actually achieve any new breakthroughs.

 

[kindof99]

Rocky sponge coming soon.