ITTF Mixed Team World Cup 2023, Chengdu, 12/4-10

[TensorBackhand]

What's your opinion if his 2-1 FZD and 3-0 FZD? Still think HT is trash?

1) I didn't say HT is trash. Anybody in the top 10 is obviously already very good. I said he should change his training methods and possibly equipment to improve his odds of winning the big titles. He has never won the big titles.

2) My opinion is the same. He has already shown that he can take games off the elite Chinese players sometimes. That was never the question. That still hasn't translated into big tournament wins, because by definition you have to win 5 or 6 matches in a row to win the tournament. If this were a tournament, he would've already lost in the QF or something and never got the chance to even face FZD in the finals. At the end of the day, no player is guaranteed to win the big tournaments. The question is: what is the training and preparation and strategy to give you be best odds

3) I think the current Harimoto trend will continue for years possibly. He will show occasional impressive victories mixed with bad defeats to players he should be dominating. None of that really matters. To win the tournaments, HT needs to do 2 things. First he needs to avoid losing to lower ranked players until the SF and F where he will likely face Chinese elite players. Then he needs to play his best to beat the elite players, which he has done sometimes in smaller tournaments, but never at the world championships.

 

[TensorBackhand]

I don't want to belabor the obvious mathematical point. Imagine you have to get 5 heads in a row by flipping a coin. If you could apply a lead weight to one side of the coin and increase the odds of getting a head, obviously you would do it right?

Even if you apply the weight, it still doesn't guarantee you will win the challenge. If you don't apply the weight, you still might win the challenge. The question is what gives you the best odds.

So, with Harimoto's playing style now, does it give him the best odds of winning 6 matches in a row? In my opinion, no.

 

[NextLevel]

1) I didn't say HT is trash. Anybody in the top 10 is obviously already very good. I said he should change his training methods and possibly equipment to improve his odds of winning the big titles. He has never won the big titles.

2) My opinion is the same. He has already shown that he can take games off the elite Chinese players sometimes. That was never the question. That still hasn't translated into big tournament wins, because by definition you have to win 5 or 6 matches in a row to win the tournament. If this were a tournament, he would've already lost in the QF or something and never got the chance to even face FZD in the finals. At the end of the day, no player is guaranteed to win the big tournaments. The question is: what is the training and preparation and strategy to give you be best odds

3) I think the current Harimoto trend will continue for years possibly. He will show occasional impressive victories mixed with bad defeats to players he should be dominating. None of that really matters. To win the tournaments, HT needs to do 2 things. First he needs to avoid losing to lower ranked players until the SF and F where he will likely face Chinese elite players. Then he needs to play his best to beat the elite players, which he has done sometimes in smaller tournaments, but never at the world championships.

Other than a few players from one country (China) in the TT landscape, who has won the big titles?

Thanks.

 

[turbozed]

1) I didn't say HT is trash. Anybody in the top 10 is obviously already very good. I said he should change his training methods and possibly equipment to improve his odds of winning the big titles. He has never won the big titles.

2) My opinion is the same. He has already shown that he can take games off the elite Chinese players sometimes. That was never the question. That still hasn't translated into big tournament wins, because by definition you have to win 5 or 6 matches in a row to win the tournament. If this were a tournament, he would've already lost in the QF or something and never got the chance to even face FZD in the finals. At the end of the day, no player is guaranteed to win the big tournaments. The question is: what is the training and preparation and strategy to give you be best odds

3) I think the current Harimoto trend will continue for years possibly. He will show occasional impressive victories mixed with bad defeats to players he should be dominating. None of that really matters. To win the tournaments, HT needs to do 2 things. First he needs to avoid losing to lower ranked players until the SF and F where he will likely face Chinese elite players. Then he needs to play his best to beat the elite players, which he has done sometimes in smaller tournaments, but never at the world championships.

If you want him to make changes in equipment and training, then his consistency will suffer. You don't change aspects of your game and get instantly better at this high level. There's going to be an adjustment period where new ideas and new strategies are going to make your results worse while you're implenting them.

This might what was happening with Harimoto as he was playing with that blocking control style, and why he was even losing to lower ranked players. Of course, this is a narrative I also created because he finally combined more aggressive shots with his blocking in this one event and then had great results against FZD and Felix.

The point is that we can all create narratives and then fit results into them. Just like the loss to Jang confirmed your narrative that Harimoto was stuck in a malaise of mediocrity, people will point to the 3-0 Felix and 2-1 FZD as a sign his adjustments are paying dividends. Your narrative might still be correct, but it suffers from the problem of being able to explain the disappointing results while having to ignore or gloss over the successes. You don't 3-0 Felix or take games 11-3 and 11-6 off FZD if you're not training properly and are ill-prepared.

But I'll let you explain your thought process. If he's not actively changing his training methods to improve his odds, how do you explain these results?

 

[NextLevel]

If you want him to make changes in equipment and training, then his consistency will suffer. You don't change aspects of your game and get instantly better at this high level. There's going to be an adjustment period where new ideas and new strategies are going to make your results worse while you're implenting them.

This might what was happening with Harimoto as he was playing with that blocking control style, and why he was even losing to lower ranked players. Of course, this is a narrative I also created because he finally combined more aggressive shots with his blocking in this one event and then had great results against FZD and Felix.

The point is that we can all create narratives and then fit results into them. Just like the loss to Jang confirmed your narrative that Harimoto was stuck in a malaise of mediocrity, people will point to the 3-0 Felix and 2-1 FZD as a sign his adjustments are paying dividends. Your narrative might still be correct, but it suffers from the problem of being able to explain the disappointing results while having to ignore or gloss over the successes. You don't 3-0 Felix or take games 11-3 and 11-6 off FZD if you're not training properly and are ill-prepared.

But I'll let you explain your thought process. If he's not actively changing his training methods to improve his odds, how do you explain these results?

He believes that Harimoto should be unbeatable given his results and growth trajectory as a youth. Anything short of that would validate his theory as long as the victories are not at majors.

 

[blahness]

Glad that Harimoto is no longer doing that nonsense push long and block, block and block till opponent makes a mistake style. He was actively controlling the short game and really hunting for that 1st strong loop. This bodes well for his future.

 

[TensorBackhand]

If you want him to make changes in equipment and training, then his consistency will suffer. You don't change aspects of your game and get instantly better at this high level. There's going to be an adjustment period where new ideas and new strategies are going to make your results worse while you're implenting them.

This might what was happening with Harimoto as he was playing with that blocking control style, and why he was even losing to lower ranked players. Of course, this is a narrative I also created because he finally combined more aggressive shots with his blocking in this one event and then had great results against FZD and Felix.

The point is that we can all create narratives and then fit results into them. Just like the loss to Jang confirmed your narrative that Harimoto was stuck in a malaise of mediocrity, people will point to the 3-0 Felix and 2-1 FZD as a sign his adjustments are paying dividends. Your narrative might still be correct, but it suffers from the problem of being able to explain the disappointing results while having to ignore or gloss over the successes. You don't 3-0 Felix or take games 11-3 and 11-6 off FZD if you're not training properly and are ill-prepared.

But I'll let you explain your thought process. If he's not actively changing his training methods to improve his odds, how do you explain these results?

I explained exactly my answer to your question. I don't think I need to explain it again. You can go back and read my answer, or we can just agree to disagree.

My opinion of HT is not based on any one result, but it has been my observation of him over the past year.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

1) I didn't say HT is trash.

yes you did

all the threads and trash talks, for weeks if not months
all this while he is still the best non Chinese over the past few years

high maintenance TTD forum member you are

 

[tackyfh]

What if Hirano played singles????

i'd say they'll have a chance at taking 1 game more than Hayata, her performance in this tournament was really lukewarm

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

after this tournament, the odds for Miwa being the 3rd player for OG2024 have increased from 80% to 99%

Miwa's brother has been awesome. totally dominant in G1-2 where FZD was sleepy.
You tell me he hasn't beaten the Chinese in world championships ? what did he do at World team ? beat FZD and Wang Chuqin in a row !

He's won the Grand Prix finals, and at very young age, thats a huge achievement.

 

[turbozed]

I explained exactly my answer to your question. I don't think I need to explain it again. You can go back and read my answer, or we can just agree to disagree.

My opinion of HT is not based on any one result, but it has been my observation of him over the past year.

I don't want to push too hard on this so I'll just say that I'm not able to see how your post answered my one specific question. Especially since I asked the question after you posted your thoughts, I wouldn't expect it to. But if you're not inclined to explain further, I will respect that.

Like I said earlier in this thread, this ribbing is mostly in good fun since you've been the most critical of Harimoto here. Nothing wrong with that. I also have a bias against WCQ and can't be trusted to speak fairly about him.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

South Korea is the second best team in the world....

Eat more fermented spicy cabbage ( kimchi ) folks, it is good for your TT.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

In the upcoming match Jap vs Ger: Hayata is benched. Hirano the Pocket Hurricane will be fielded instead as WS.

 

[NextLevel]

Hurricane Hirano did not help calm discussion over not playing vs South Korea lol.

 

[zeio]

GER 2-1 -> 2-4 -> 3-6 -> 4-8 JPN
Wan Yuan/Meissner 2-1 Harimoto2/Togami (9, -3, 7)
Winter 0-3 Hirano (-4, -8, -9)
02, 12 endline edge for Winter, 15, 25 dead net for Winter, 27, 37, 310, 410, 411
01, 21 Winter warned for toss, 41, 45 TO for GER, 55, 57, 67, 68, 78, 79, 89, 811
10, 13, 33, 34, 64, 66, 76, 77 slight net for Hirano, 79, 99, 911
Walther 1-2 Harimoto (-3, -9, 9)
G1 06, 16, 18, 28, 29, 39, 311
G2 02, 12 Harimoto warned for non-vertical toss, 52, 53, 73, 76, 86, 89, 99, 910 slight edge for Harimoto?, 911
Winter/Wan Yuan 1-2 Harimoto2/Kihara (9, -10, -5)
Wan Yuan has been playing exceptionally well in this tourney, carrying the team with SXN.

 

[turbozed]

Hirano committed a Japan team cardinal sin by not apologizing and appearing too happy about a fortunate net ball in that 3rd game.

At least she didn't let out a massive cholei at the top her of her lungs like the kids I've been playing lol

 

[tackyfh]

watching Kihara play is pure depressing

Luckily she woke up in the last set

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

So, with Harimoto's playing style now, does it give him the best odds of winning 6 matches in a row? In my opinion, no.

Why haven't any pro hired you yet

 

[zeio]

CHN - KOR
WCQ/SYS - SYB/AJH
WMY - Kim Nayeong
FZD - LSS

 

[NextLevel]

CHN - KOR
WCQ/SYS - SYB/AJH
WMY - Kim Nayeong
FZD - LSS

This is IMHO clearly throwing the match while using it to collect information.