Rubber throw angle topic again.

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I totally missed the replies,
many good advice already, so I don't need to add any more.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

this term "throw angle" which BrokenBall rightly points out is not really so definable.

No matter what we call it, it can be bunny (year of the rabbit lol) or arc, or Noah's arc.

I have seen demonstrations from those Crazy Japanese "youtubers" (before youtuber exist) of testing rubber with different "throw angle" being advertised by the manufacture.

Same thing - using robot to feed underspin and top spin, at different settings to the same spots and then you have 3 or 4 different rubbers.
you know how those Japanese likes to do analysis on everything?

Well, the angle of how the ball responded from an idle position was, guess what, all different angles.

In summary, I recall, the findings was the same as what the manufacture advertised in terms of those angles, or arc or bunny, or ma long.

I'm no video editing expert, but if I have the skills. I would like to do such a video to show that the manufactures are not really spreading fairy tales lies (I think BB mentioned something like this once).

I do think i'm a fair person.
Maybe BB needs to come and give his video, on how these brands are indeed spreading fairy tales lies.
I'm sure people really love to learn, but by saying, because you don't have the numbers, you are dumb, is really dumb.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

After my game I was hungry and wanted a Big Mac & Coke to instantly satisfy my hunger. Instead of a Big Mac & Coke, I got a Gordon Ramsay type five star Michelin chef giving me a lecture on how to prepare a full gourmet French dinner.
After two days, I am still hungry + confused.

This is how I am feeling now.

then Mr Ramsay goes and get a Burger King down the road

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

No matter what we call it, it can be bunny (year of the rabbit lol) or arc, or Noah's arc.

I have seen demonstrations from those Crazy Japanese "youtubers" (before youtuber exist) of testing rubber with different "throw angle" being advertised by the manufacture.

Same thing - using robot to feed underspin and top spin, at different settings to the same spots and then you have 3 or 4 different rubbers.
you know how those Japanese likes to do analysis on everything?

Well, the angle of how the ball responded from an idle position was, guess what, all different angles.

In summary, I recall, the findings was the same as what the manufacture advertised in terms of those angles, or arc or bunny, or ma long.

I'm no video editing expert, but if I have the skills. I would like to do such a video to show that the manufactures are not really spreading fairy tales lies (I think BB mentioned something like this once).

I do think i'm a fair person.
Maybe BB needs to come and give his video, on how these brands are indeed spreading fairy tales lies.
I'm sure people really love to learn, but by saying, because you don't have the numbers, you are dumb, is really dumb.

What you are describing sounds simply like how reactive to incoming spin the rubber is. Like, if on a topspin shot, the ball comes off the rubber at a higher angle going upward, on a backspin shot, would it come of the rubber with a larger angle going downward?

Or does the term apply to the arc it allows you to create so that you can aim higher and still arc the ball onto the table? That is something different than what you are describing.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

What you are describing sounds simply like how reactive to incoming spin the rubber is. Like, if on a topspin shot, the ball comes off the rubber at a higher angle going upward, on a backspin shot, would it come of the rubber with a larger angle going downward?

Or does the term apply to the arc it allows you to create so that you can aim higher and still arc the ball onto the table? That is something different than what you are describing.

lets just use top spin feed.

feed to rubber 1, the ball will go off low
rubber 2, the ball medium
rubber 3, the ball high

In other words, the rubber did it, since it was an idle racket there.

So in video terms, I saw this being demostrated in that video:

 

[brokenball]

No, lower throw means less margin of error for topspins due to the flatter trajectory.

You are assuming that the same stroke is used for what you call low and high throw rubbers.
The same impulse and resulting trajectory can be achieved by either rubber, but it will take a different stroke. The good thing is that people are adaptable. People can adapt to the rubber with different "throws"

The diagram above shows how the different rubbers will react under the same conditions ( stroke included )
However, people can achieve the any one of these 3 trajectories with any one of these 3 rubbers buy simply varying their stroke

 

[dingyibvs]

You are assuming that the same stroke is used for what you call low and high throw rubbers.
The same impulse and resulting trajectory can be achieved by either rubber, but it will take a different stroke. The good thing is that people are adaptable. People can adapt to the rubber with different "throws"

The diagram above shows how the different rubbers will react under the same conditions ( stroke included )
However, people can achieve the any one of these 3 trajectories with any one of these 3 rubbers buy simply varying their stroke

Yes, I'm assuming the same stroke. He's looking for an instant improvement, which can only be achieved by using the same stroke.

 

[jk1980]

lets just use top spin feed.

feed to rubber 1, the ball will go off low
rubber 2, the ball medium
rubber 3, the ball high

In other words, the rubber did it, since it was an idle racket there.

So in video terms, I saw this being demostrated in that video:

that is pretty much how i understand and experienced it personally. Just image the bat always traveling the same strike plane (basically 45°). The yellow path is a high throw rubber, the blue one a medium throw rubber and the green one a low throw rubber. If we disregard those numbers on that picture, it could very well be true that all balls have the same amount of spin and just take a differen path due to being at different speeds.

There is no need to differentiate between topspin loop and backspin push. It is the same movement just mirrored vertically and shifted a little (due to the addition of gravity and magnus effect impacting the flight path differently for under vs top spin).

Point is, your high throw rubber will enable you to have a much more open blade when pushing with heavy backspin sending the ball very low over the net.

What is true that the more closed angle of topspin and the more open angle on heavy backhand push are more difficult in terms of hitting the ball properly (because there is less surface you strike through the path of the ball) when using high throw rubbers.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Yes, I'm assuming the same stroke. He's looking for an instant improvement, which can only be achieved by using the same stroke.

that is my understanding too, with my chinglish

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

And if that is how you are defining "high throw", only based on the reaction while facing topspin, then, it is worth knowing, that is how much the rubber grabs the ball and how reactive it is to incoming spin. Also, if you are talking about how reactive to incoming spin, then it is worth understanding, the same rubber vs backspin, will cause the ball will get pulled down harder.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

that is pretty much how i understand and experienced it personally. Just image the bat always traveling the same strike plane (basically 45°). The yellow path is a high throw rubber, the blue one a medium throw rubber and the green one a low throw rubber. If we disregard those numbers on that picture, it could very well be true that all balls have the same amount of spin and just take a differen path due to being at different speeds.

That is why these too technical part is really, not important for a coach and the student.
There are too many factors in play, equipment, glue, air, whether, emotion, body, etc.

equipment/glue, once setup based on what you want.
the coach/players adapt.

In pro training, it is not often that after 1 session, the rubbers comes off and it needs to be reglued. Since, it doesn't feel right.
Can't say the pro isn't technically sound to adapt, but if you can't adapt, then you would make corrections - including, new blade/rubber immediately to continue that high level training.

For amateur, I will say, equipment is not a problem. It is your training
For pros, I will say, equipment is a problem, change it.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

And if that is how you are defining "high throw", only based on the reaction while facing topspin, then, it is worth knowing, that is how much the rubber grabs the ball and how reactive it is to incoming spin. Also, if you are talking about how reactive to incoming spin, vs backspin, the ball will get pulled down harder.

Same video - if you ready my initial post.
Had underspin feed too
and those rubbers placed in push position and for it to measure the arc going back too.

This video, is, I don't even know, how many years old.
The one I saw was very bad quality, and must have been more than 10 years ago (before I started my TTT company)
All I remember, it was Japanese, and using one of the Japanese brands.

The main method of the video was teaching how the pips affect the arc of the ball.
That was maybe my first true learning video of how equipment actually works.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

That is why these too technical part is really, not important for a coach and the student.
There are too many factors in play, equipment, glue, air, whether, emotion, body, etc.

equipment/glue, once setup based on what you want.
the coach/players adapt.

In pro training, it is not often that after 1 session, the rubbers comes off and it needs to be reglued. Since, it doesn't feel right.
Can't say the pro isn't technically sound to adapt, but if you can't adapt, then you would make corrections - including, new blade/rubber immediately to continue that high level training.

For amateur, I will say, equipment is not a problem. It is your training
For pros, I will say, equipment is a problem, change it.

Yep. I agree with this.

I would also say, this post explains why Gozo is looking in the wrong direction by simply examining "throw angle" for how to make him stop missing and hitting shots that go off in unpredictable directions.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Same video - if you ready my initial post.
Had underspin feed too
and those rubbers placed in push position and for it to measure the arc going back too.

This video, is, I don't even know, how many years old.
The one I saw was very bad quality, and must have been more than 10 years ago (before I started my TTT company)
All I remember, it was Japanese, and using one of the Japanese brands.

The main method of the video was teaching how the pips affect the arc of the ball.
That was maybe my first true learning video of how equipment actually works.

Something like that would be interesting from the standpoint of analysis and trying to understand the differences in different rubbers.

But for most amateurs, getting something that they can handle, learning how to read the incoming spin on the ball and how to respond to that incoming spin, and taking the time to adapt to equipment that they can handle at the level they are at, that would be what would help them develop and improve.

 

[IB66]

Perhaps……..?????????
The term throw angle should be used for a static bat and Ball with no spin, a dead ball. Then you can measure a NATURAL throw angle.
For a static bat and a ball with spin you can measure how spin sensitive the rubber is.

Of course you can go further with experiments, moving bat, at angle ‘x’ with a certain stroke path etc etc etc blah blah blah!!!

We call it ’throw angle’ I have a gut feeling it’s more to do with spin sensitivity, could be right, could be wrong!!!

As with everything there are pros and cons

High Throw Rubber - is this a SAFER rubber??? EASIER to play rubber???

Depends on what you want!!!

If you want a low penetrating topspin shot ( which is generally considered ‘better’ ) then from the point of view that you will have to close the face more, and therefore have to be more precise, then, a NO it’s not easier it’s not safer. But it may be better!!!???

Keeping a topspin stroke on the table, ( not bothered by height of bounce ) a YES, it’s safer, ball gets dragged down onto the table.

If playing a topspin v backspin it should be easier to lift the ball. a YES

if playing push v backspin, you’ll have to open the blade more, which may be harder to play pushes, again you will have to be more precise, a NO (especially when combined with a ‘spring sponge’.)

for chopping v topspin, probably a NO

Its swings and roundabouts!!!

Ya pays ya money and takes ya choice!!!

 

[lodro]

If one drops a ball onto a blade that has been carefully "leveled",
the ball will jump back up without any deflection.

See what I mean ???
See what it is that maked the throw-angle ????

 

[passifid]

I hate to muddy the water but there is an issue with measuring throw angle like this. You would have to adjust it for incoming speed, as softer topsheets like T05 would be very high throw angle compared to say MX-P on a slow topspin block but into a much harder shot the MXP would catch up as its stiffer topsheet moulds.

Further to this I would actuall for once agree with BB. Throw angle is the ability of a rubber to create tangentical COR/COR. if a rubber is very fast but only a bit grippy (Sriver G3) it feels very low throw, however the same topsheet on a slower rubber feels like a higher throw (Sriver L).

I do think however the idea that rubber does not matter is a bit silly just because you can do all shots with one. It is like suggesting a Hyundai I10 1.2L is a perfectly suitable motorway car as it can hit 70mph and therefore is equally as suitable for that application as a BMW 3 series. It ignores how it feels when getting there and how easy it is to do it and that it feels like you are breaking it if you do that for any real amount of time.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

To help me understand better:
1. Some responders here suggest that no matter the rubber, you just adapt your stroked to it and voila you'll be just fine
2. Whereas there are others in an opposing camp ( me included ) with the view, keep to your existing / natural strokes and find a rubber that will compliment you.
So which school of thoughts is more likeable to one?
It all boils down to these two opposing camps right? Anyone wishes to put up a 3rd option / opinion?

 

[dingyibvs]

To help me understand better:
1. Some responders here suggest that no matter the rubber, you just adapt your stroked to it and voila you'll be just fine
2. Whereas there are others in an opposing camp ( me included ) with the view, keep to your existing / natural strokes and find a rubber that will compliment you.
So which school of thoughts is more likeable to one?
It all boils down to these two opposing camps right? Anyone wishes to put up a 3rd option / opinion?

They're not really opposing camps, they're two options anyone may choose from.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

To help me understand better:
1. Some responders here suggest that no matter the rubber, you just adapt your stroked to it and voila you'll be just fine
2. Whereas there are others in an opposing camp ( me included ) with the view, keep to your existing / natural strokes and find a rubber that will compliment you.
So which school of thoughts is more likeable to one?
It all boils down to these two opposing camps right? Anyone wishes to put up a 3rd option / opinion?

To me, it is finding the balance between the 2.
Some people have the technique of his own book and been searching for the excalibur for decades.