Rubber throw angle topic again.

[tabletennisdaily1]

Brokenball, from my perspective, some of what you say makes sense, but some of what you say is wrong, not practically helpful, or both. That is fine, debate is all about figuring stuff out, but lets at least try to be persuasive in doing so. One big part of being persuasive is to be cordial and respectful even in disagreement. Think of the Wind and the Sun from Aesops Fables.

That being said, some people are also not debating in good faith in this thread either, so I understand the frustration too. My comments toward you apply to everyone else as well, including myself. The correct and honorable thing to do is to try to bring more linguistic clarity, hard data, and rigorous logic to the table and hope that the persuasion will eventually cross the table.

Just out of curiosity brokenball, what was your highest USATT rating?

 

[lodro]

.........and then suddenly, completely out of the blue I am taken back, way back. I am watching the Muppet show, it is just starting and the 2 grumpy old geezers on the balcony are singing:

" Why do we always come here...
I really do not know......
It is a kinda torture
to have to watch this show ".........................

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Can I be honest, I know a lot of people don't like and don't have patience for BrokenBall. I get why. But none of you who try to attack him, from my perspective, look good doing it either.

Just ignore the guy if he rubs you the wrong way. He is on his last chance on the forum. The last time he got banned it was for 3 months. The next time it will be permanent. I don't know that he can grow up, so, likely, he won't be on the forum much longer as BrokenBall. But you guys harassing him does not look good in my book either. You are making yourselves look immature and vindictive. There is no reason to pay attention to him or react to the argumentative stuff he says. You guys acting childish in response to him acting that way makes no sense at all.

So, do me a favor, just put him on your ignore list and you won't even have to look at his posts.

I don't think my post is attacking, do you?

As I said, giving him the benefit of doubt, so he can prove his points.
If he did ask TT vendors, and they don't want to reply, then I was going to dig deeper.
But since his claims does not have any warrant, i'm pretty sure TT vendors does not even know of his existence.

Since, my "asking" is concluded, and I can see BB 13 years of asking is only to thin air, then can can continue his thin air for another 13. I don't really care.

 

[Metaxa]

Dag Allemaal,

Ik zou dit onderwerp graag nog een keer willen aansnijden.

Als ik het goed begrijp, zou iemand die voornamelijk loopy topspin speelt de voorkeur geven aan een rubber met een hogere worphoek.
Als een speler de voorkeur geeft aan een vlakkere, oftewel counter-hitting-stijl, zou hij baat hebben bij een rubber met een lagere werphoek.
Krijg ik dit goed?

For me this is so. I prefer a higher bow because I prefer to play a piece off the table. Why? because that's how we learned it 45 years ago.
I'm not sure you'll see much of a higher arc when playing close to/above a table.
It also seems difficult to play close to/above a table with a more open top. It would require an unnatural position of my wrist for me.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

That being said, some people are also not debating in good faith in this thread either, so I understand the frustration too.

Just out of curiosity brokenball, what was your highest USATT rating?

I think the history been there that BB is perceived to come and correct people on certain "terminology". I think perceived is an understatement. He has been doing that for years.
Some times he doesn't, but then it sounds like he was banned (or didn't bother to get involved).

I suggested to him that he should ask for a science/engineering section, and anyone that likes to speak his language can go there and leave the rest of the forum out of the same things (over and over again)

But the rest of the forum get labelled as guys who are into myths, or fairy tales, or accepting lies by tt vendors.

It is a bit tying following the same nonsense for years. Mind you, I have been away from this forum for a few years, and I came back and saw BB, and I was like, he is still here.
Then I found out, the 10 year ago guy was BB's previous username.... I didn't remember the username, I just remember the whole approach of trying to teach/educate people with,

Imo and with respect to BB, a player who has never been close to elite level.
I once asked, what his level was, he didn't reply.
I was told by mods to stop asking.

a while ago, he posted a video of him playing. At best, he is no way near 2000.

I disagree with mods saying, we shouldn't ask level if users refuse to give.
Someone who is on this forum making corrections left right and centre, needs to "give" some background info out first, before asking others to "accept" those corrections.

Back then, there was a certified status on this forum. So we could know who was "filtered" by mods/Dan. And that did help with quality. IE equipment experts, coaching experts, and what not.

well, I learnt table tennis not in the English language. There are still a lot of undefined words when we use "BH flick" in Chinese. Tough luck, English don't have so much words that has been defined. Well, end of the day, language is only a communication tool and if the communication is successful and the correct shot is executed, then as a Coach, the job is done with merit. I'm a table tennis coach, not a English spell bee expert.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

If BrokenBall does not know why so many people dislike him, and you are not interested in what he has to say, just ignore him. Tony, you are definitely trying to make fun of him. To me, it comes off like bad behavior, just like his saying he is not behaving badly while calling people words like "idiot" looks bad.

Just ignore him if you don't agree with him. He does have something to offer. But if you are not interested, there is no reason to engage him.

BrokenBall, you berating people for not seeing things your way IS BAD BEHAVIOR. At some point you should realize why people react to you the way the do. It is not the information.

Perhaps it is time for you to make your own table tennis forum and leave the people on this forum to themselves.

 

[Zwill]

I dislike broken balls, they are a waste of time, money, they are slow, have reduced spin, wobbly , sound like a rooster with broken balls, and just to make a desperate attempt to stay on topic broken balls make a horrendous throw angle on the rubber.

I don't dislike BrokenBall, tho many of the characteristics of broken balls kind of apply to him too (especially the rooster part )
Seriously USDC you need to let the forum sort its shit out. I understand you are a babysitter but lately I didn't see anything emotional or derogatory flying around and I don't think you calling out BB helps. Or just send him a PM if you have an itch.

A few weeks ago Scarfed Garchomp had a really "good" time with the guy who has an absolute stiffy for Magic 77 (I am sorry for not remembering your alias) but even that was civil and fun and you left them be. (thank the baby Jesus and all that is holy)

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

@Zwill, point taken.

@Tony, I see nothing wrong with asking someone's rating or level or asking for footage. In my opinion, someone who is trying to give advice on the forum should show his level of play so people can tell who they are getting information from.

 

[matt243385]

To help me understand better:
1. Some responders here suggest that no matter the rubber, you just adapt your stroked to it and voila you'll be just fine
2. Whereas there are others in an opposing camp ( me included ) with the view, keep to your existing / natural strokes and find a rubber that will compliment you.
So which school of thoughts is more likeable to one?
It all boils down to these two opposing camps right? Anyone wishes to put up a 3rd option / opinion?

Honestly, it depends on your playstyle or how you "want" to play. You can always switch to hurricane and adapt your form to be more "foward" if you wish to have a strong forehand. If you want a safer or faster forehand, you could use something like tenergy. But you shouldn't just use any rubber, choose one you are capable of using, for example hurricane needs a lot of energy exerted to have full potential

 

[matt243385]

i have not played with Chinese Tacky rubber for more than a year. Not going back there. I will have to unlearn a lot to go back there, not gonna happen. If you recalled in about six weeks after I took lesson with my coach, he told me to stop using chinese tacky rubber because my stroke does not match with it.

T05 was recommended by my coach recently and during stroking it was great but I suffered during match play. My ball was flying here and there. After a month of using T05, I have gone back to my old Donic Bluefire M1 ( which I had a few pcs lying around from my previous purchase) while waiting for MXP to go on sale to buy it. My old MXP sponge has deteriorated a lot, I just had to throw it away.

As for using a slower blade, not gonna happen as well as I have been using the same blade, that is, my current one ply hinoki for a year now and I do not want to unlearn and relearn a new blade. It will be such a waste of time.

usually, you can adapt your stroke to use hurricane but if you are like me, i dont have enough power to use hurricane. if it isnt for you, it isnt for you.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

The above diagram intrigues me.

It occurred to me, using my current rubber, that is, Butterfly Flextra as an example, the flight path generated is totally based on my stroke. Sometimes it is high and archy if my angle is more open whereas it is low and flat if I have a more closed angle.

My point is the flight of the ball is determined by the user's stroke so what is the point of the above diagram?

Any engineer care to do the honours?

 

[Hotdog]

View attachment 29629
The above diagram intrigues me.

It occurred to me, using my current rubber, that is, Butterfly Flextra as an example, the flight path generated is totally based on my stroke. Sometimes it is high and archy if my angle is more open whereas it is low and flat if I have a more closed angle.

My point is the flight of the ball is determined by the user's stroke so what is the point of the above diagram?

Any engineer care to do the honours?

I’m neither an engineer nor a table tennis expert, but in terms of infographics, this graph would be normalized around paddle angle and stroke, in order to isolate the variable we are interested in — throw angle. You could normalize it around trajectory, and all the lines would be identical, but the stroke input would be quite different. That’s why theses charts might be confusing if taken too literally. If you use Bluestorm it doesn’t mean every shot is going to fly up into smash territory. It means that if you use Bluestorm, you’d have to use a much more closed paddle angle to match the trajectory of the Desto rubber.

 

[Lazer]

View attachment 29629
The above diagram intrigues me.

It occurred to me, using my current rubber, that is, Butterfly Flextra as an example, the flight path generated is totally based on my stroke. Sometimes it is high and archy if my angle is more open whereas it is low and flat if I have a more closed angle.

My point is the flight of the ball is determined by the user's stroke so what is the point of the above diagram?

Any engineer care to do the honours?

The diagram is based on an identical stroke. Usually the higher arc means more grip in relation to speed.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[Scarfed Garchomp]

It occurred to me, using my current rubber, that is, Butterfly Flextra as an example, the flight path generated is totally based on my stroke. Sometimes it is high and archy if my angle is more open whereas it is low and flat if I have a more closed angle.

My point is the flight of the ball is determined by the user's stroke so what is the point of the above diagram?

You are not wrong, but the graph is probably more accurate to predict the results of the different rubbers if you used the same stroke against the same incoming ball. For example if you tried to do a slow and high arcing loop with Tenergy 05 versus an antispin rubber, Tenergy 05 would put a lot of spin and arc in your shot but the anti would probably either drop the ball outright or the shot would be very slow and spinless.

 

[brokenball]

You are not wrong, but the graph is probably more accurate to predict the results of the different rubbers if you used the same stroke against the same incoming ball. For example if you tried to do a slow and high arcing loop with Tenergy 05 versus an antispin rubber, Tenergy 05 would put a lot of spin and arc in your shot but the anti would probably either drop the ball outright or the shot would be very slow and spinless.

Yes, the speed and spin of the incoming ball AND the stroke are assumed to be the same. However, why do you want to hit a ball with a high arc? That would mean it will bounce high too. This means one must change the stroke and attitude of the paddle to keep the trajectory low over the net and deep. All rubbers listed can hit the same trajectory but it will take a different stroke.

 

[brokenball]

I think the history been there that BB is perceived to come and correct people on certain "terminology". I think perceived is an understatement. He has been doing that for years.

Yes, it like lodro and others saying a ball has weight instead of energy. Yes a ball has a mass of 2.7 gm it is also has translational and rotational energy, not power.

Some times he doesn't, but then it sounds like he was banned (or didn't bother to get involved).

Stupid people have try to de-rail my posts. Long ago I tried to explain dwell time. A person tried to tell me I was wrong. He said acceleration doesn't cause force. Force causes acceleration. Obviously this idiot has never accelerated down the road in a Tesla and felt the acceleration push him back in his seat. This idiot claimed to be a school teach in England. Poor kids. USDC banned me because I called him an idiot. Neither Dan or USDC corrected the idiot. Appaently they don't know or don't care about truth or reality. You just can't call people names.

Can you explain what it takes to extend dwell time? I ask this question and no one answers. This part it easy.

I suggested to him that he should ask for a science/engineering section, and anyone that likes to speak his language can go there and leave the rest of the forum out of the same things (over and over again)

How can you get anywhere it you don't use a meaningful language. I use correct engineering/physics terms

But the rest of the forum get labelled as guys who are into myths, or fairy tales, or accepting lies by tt vendors.

Very true. The forum has made little effort to really educated anybody

Way back in 2009 I offended the mytt forum by saying throw angle is BS. I asked them to define a throw angle. They couldn't or wouldn't. This made them mad. There are all sort of cases where I challenged their myths. I didn't need to call them names. I made them feel stupid. That is why they didn't like me. Feeling matter more than facts on this forum and others.

It is a bit tying following the same nonsense for years. Mind you, I have been away from this forum for a few years, and I came back and saw BB, and I was like, he is still here.

Yes.

Then I found out, the 10 year ago guy was BB's previous username.... I didn't remember the username, I just remember the whole approach of trying to teach/educate people with,

Imo and with respect to BB, a player who has never been close to elite level.
I once asked, what his level was, he didn't reply.
I was told by mods to stop asking.

I am 70 now I stopped playing in college when engineering studies became too much. Also, I played in a college wide TT tournament and came in 5th. I was a freshman then. The next year 3 of the 4 above me left. There was only one Taiwanese looper ahead of me. At that time we played with 38mm balls and the good ones were made by Halex.

a while ago, he posted a video of him playing. At best, he is no way near 2000.

Yes, I was 60+ and had a 40 year break. Also, I was playing c-pen. I made that video in support of the c-pen thread. I normally play shake hands. I made that clear but it is people like you and the media to take things out of context.

I disagree with mods saying, we shouldn't ask level if users refuse to give.

What does that have to do with knowledge of physics? Have you seen the Omron robot? There is a video of the Omron robot playing Dan. It is probably programmed by what you would call a nerd and he probably doesn't play TT very well but he knows the physics. The robot is limited by the mechanics. Not the vision or computer power.

Someone who is on this forum making corrections left right and centre, needs to "give" some background info out first, before asking others to "accept" those corrections.

Be specific. This is the kind of posting I call "hit and run' I have. They haven't

Back then, there was a certified status on this forum. So we could know who was "filtered" by mods/Dan. And that did help with quality. IE equipment experts, coaching experts, and what not.

Do Dan and USDC have physics/engineering degrees too? I doubt it.
They could find and engineer to challenge what I say but they haven't.
I am retired now. For over 20+ year I wrote engineering articles that got published in many enginerring magazines. I was president of a motion control company. We sold product around the world, even to ZA.

Really, except for coaches like you, does anybody make money at TT?
I just wasted 15 minutes of the rest of my life.