Is any current top player better than prime Ma Long (2015-2017)?

[d3nium]

 

[NextLevel]

That's the only match ML lost in 2014. First major to use the 40+ cellulose acetate ball.

It is crazy to remember how hard ML was to beat back then. That said, one tournament is not a longevity argument. And that ball was crappy in its own way, but it definitely didn't play quite like the ABS balls, but it did take more energy to get moving and encouraged more physical technique.

 

[NextLevel]

ZJK against choppers with ABS ball. IIRC, he just came back from his hiatus for Hong Kong Open 2018.

Hong Kong Open 2018
ZJK vs Ma Te

Zhibo.TV event
ZJK vs Hou Yingchao

And you think this kind of arm usage is as effective with the newer balls?

 

[Choosikick]

To compare a weak forehand with the forehand of ZJK, you can watch the previous match Timo Bol - Joo Se Huyk. Everything is relative.

 

[zeio]

It is crazy to remember how hard ML was to beat back then. That said, one tournament is not a longevity argument. And that ball was crappy in its own way, but it definitely didn't play quite like the ABS balls, but it did take more energy to get moving and encouraged more physical technique.

As ML told in 3/2017, his worst-ever and most regrettable match is the one at WTTC 2013 and he felt like quitting for good after World Cup 2014.

 

[NextLevel]

To compare a weak forehand with the forehand of ZJK, you can watch the previous match Timo Bol - Joo Se Huyk. Everything is relative.

You mean the Timo Boll who beat Joo just about every other time they played but that match? I believe Joo has that match up there amongst his biggest wins with his win over Ma Lin in 2003 WTTC higher of course

It's okay, we can just agree to disagree. I think Zhang Jike's looping style did better with the old ball than with the newer balls and he would have had a longer career if the balls hadn't been changed.

 

[zeio]

And you think this kind of arm usage is as effective with the newer balls?

Doesn't matter. I mean Boll is still winning with that chicken wing stroke.

 

[zeio]

There's no point talking about longevity here. Like Harimoto pointed out, ML didn't get past WH and FZD didn't get past ML. Simple as that. WH was in front of ML just like ML was in front of FZD, and both failed to scale the wall.

 

[NextLevel]

Doesn't matter. I mean Boll is still winning with that chicken wing stroke.

Boll's uses his legs *a lot*. People just focus on the lack of leverage.

 

[NextLevel]

There's no point talking about longevity here. Like Harimoto pointed out, ML didn't get past WH and FZD didn't get past ML. Simple as that. WH was in front of ML just like ML was in front of FZD, and both failed to scale the wall.

That's one perspective - the other perspective is that if something shortens your career even if it gives you a high peak, maybe it is better to do something sustainable that may lengthen it, if it provides a lower peak. But when what causes the lower peak is not entirely in your control like the change of the ball, it remains an open question. As for scaling the wall, we can only scale what is in front of us, and father time remains undefeated.

 

[Choosikick]

ZJK against choppers with ABS ball. IIRC, he just came back from his hiatus for Hong Kong Open 2018.

Hong Kong Open 2018
ZJK vs Ma Te

Zhibo.TV event
ZJK vs Hou Yingchao

Who better than you should know what missing training means for an athlete.

 

[Choosikick]

That's one perspective - the other perspective is that if something shortens your career even if it gives you a high peak, maybe it is better to do something sustainable that may lengthen it, if it provides a lower peak. But when what causes the lower peak is not entirely in your control like the change of the ball, it remains an open question. As for scaling the wall, we can only scale what is in front of us, and father time remains undefeated.

Look how Zhang broke the sides with his feet, undressed and threw his T-shirt into the hall after defeating Ma Long. And this was not an isolated incident. Is this the behavior of an exemplary athlete of the Chinese national team? Will such behavior, which millions of young Chinese will look up to, be approved by the Party? Perhaps the reason for the “injuries” lies not in the imperfection of Zhang’s technique, but in other possible reasons. After all, there are so many athletes with imperfect technique who are older than ZJK and still play at a high level, for example Timo Boll.

 

[NextLevel]

Look how Zhang broke the sides with his feet, undressed and threw his T-shirt into the hall after defeating Ma Long. And this was not an isolated incident. Is this the behavior of an exemplary athlete of the Chinese national team? Will such behavior, which millions of young Chinese will look up to, be approved by the Party? Perhaps the reason for the “injuries” lies not in the imperfection of Zhang’s technique, but in other possible reasons. After all, there are so many athletes with imperfect technique who are older than ZJK and still play at a high level, for example Timo Boll.

Maybe so. Maybe he had other physical issues that were much more important - maybe the over training of his task master coach? But he had a lot of shoulder issues, and that to me was because his forehand swing activated upper and and wrist more than hip movement. Boll largely played with faster equipment than Zhang Jike. But again, this is my view, yours is probably more respectable and correct. The bigger ball just put too much stress on arm based technique.

 

[Choosikick]

Let's take a period early in Ma Long's career and look at his backhand. How can he play a modern 40+ ball with such a backhand? But the fact is that every normal athlete adapts and changes his technique to fit his equipment over time.
Also, let's look at the forehand of modern young Chinese players, who are now in the top 10 strongest players in the world. I think that the “weak” forehand of Zhang Jike will give a head start to many of them.

 

[Robin0910]

Let's take a period early in Ma Long's career and look at his backhand. How can he play a modern 40+ ball with such a backhand? But the fact is that every normal athlete adapts and changes his technique to fit his equipment over time.
Also, let's look at the forehand of modern young Chinese players, who are now in the top 10 strongest players in the world. I think that the “weak” forehand of Zhang Jike will give a head start to many of them.

There are some heavy hitters among these youngsters like Xiang Peng and Lin Shidong. Tho many of them have a physically weaker forehand like Yuan Licen, but there’s one thing in common: they all generate power from their legs and hip rotation and unsurprisingly none of them have shoulder injuries (though they’re young but ZJK was relatively young as well when his injuries started to appear). On the other hand, I don’t necessarily think the new ball caused injuries to him but I see why others think so because you unarguably need more power for it and Zhang Jike generated more power from his upper arms unlike his teammates so it probably did contribute to his later injuries but his forehand was always like that, he didn’t change it for the new ball. That’s why I also think that Ma Long was better with the new ball, his technique was just more suited for it and at the time his backhand to forehand transition was faster and didn’t have his wide forehand weakness making his new style of backhand suitable for his game.

 

[NextLevel]

There are some heavy hitters among these youngsters like Xiang Peng and Lin Shidong. Tho many of them have a physically weaker forehand like Yuan Licen, but there’s one thing in common: they all generate power from their legs and hip rotation and unsurprisingly none of them have shoulder injuries (though they’re young but ZJK was relatively young as well when his injuries started to appear). On the other hand, I don’t necessarily think the new ball caused injuries to him but I see why others think so because you unarguably need more power for it and Zhang Jike generated more power from his upper arms unlike his teammates so it probably did contribute to his later injuries but his forehand was always like that, he didn’t change it for the new ball. That’s why I also think that Ma Long was better with the new ball, his technique was just more suited for it and at the time his backhand to forehand transition was faster and didn’t have his wide forehand weakness making his new style of backhand suitable for his game.

Thanks, Choosikick can see it his own way, but I think I have spoken to enough people that agree with me to know that I am not delusional. It is quite possible that ZJK had other issues with overtraining etc., but it is not hard to see that his approach to forehand is just a bit different.

Some people think it is bad, I don't think so, every technique has strengths and weaknesses, it is just that when someone says this technique is perfect, just trying to help him see that people can disagree on seemingly obvious things.

 

[Shine]

There's no point talking about longevity here. Like Harimoto pointed out, ML didn't get past WH and FZD didn't get past ML. Simple as that. WH was in front of ML just like ML was in front of FZD, and both failed to scale the wall.

Let's see if Hari gets over Wang or Fan in the long run lol

 

[zeio]

Let's see if Hari gets over Wang or Fan in the long run lol

Well, he did touch on that. We will see whether he waits for his turn or becomes another ZJK. Loosely speaking, he has already done it at WTTC 2022.

 

[Shine]

Well, he did touch on that. We will see whether he waits for his turn or becomes another ZJK. Loosely speaking, he has already done it at WTTC 2022.

When did a one-off double win become the criteria to determine that Hari has surpassed Fan and Wang. The standard is to beat them at the big events, and win the big trophies, that was what Harimoto himself was referring to.

 

[Shine]

He can't even beat the Chinese number 5 these days. That double win looking more like something that may never happen again.